For Maged, a Truly Free Soul..

March 22, 2006

My dear brother. I am sorry for having taken this long to answer you, and I will combine my responses below. To Mohammad, my other brother, I am still working on a viable response, but it is coming.

My friend, Of course it is of no use to ask people while you have already formed your opinion, yet i will try to transfer my point of view to you

No, of course there is a use! How can we grow if we do not engage in the intelligent discussions?

1- any religion is just a unique experience of each person, my islam is not like the islam of my friend, the religion is affected by the humans way of thinking

I say this in love… you are not a true Moslem, Maged. In a way, I thank God that you were saved from a thirst for blood and a hate, but a true Moslem will think that a Christian–even a good one–can never go to heaven. Also, a true Christian is marked by the fact that he can only accept JESUS CHRIST as the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE, No man can come to the Father (God) but through Him (Jesus)!

Christianity is a religion of moral absolutes. Jesus is the ONLY WAY you can enter heaven, according to the Bible. Even praying to Mary, His mother, will not get you there.

god will not visit you in your dreams and tell you what did he mean by his text, it is only you who have the responsiblity to understand his holy texts and hence it is affected by your mind and your background

This puts you in the driver’s seat, doesn’t it! What if I am retarded mentally and cannot understand? Will the god suddenly be nicer to me than to, for example, a genius as yourself? There is no divine sliding scale of salvation and after-life retribution!

2- in islam, there is no reason to kill anyone at all unless he tries to kill you or fight you, and if he stops then you should stop too, this is my understanding for the holy texts

Boy, you are really not a true Moslem! :-)
(I believe you are so in error about the holy text, then! You can’t apply
” 3a2l ” and rational and modern or even humanistic thought to your ‘scriptures,’ dear brother. As Dr Wafaa said, this is really a barbaric and outdated faith… I have to modify her words, however, because the teachings were never NOT outdated! That is to say, they were wrong the from the first day they were printed! The Koran is ” ghalat fy ghalat! ”

when a country falls in the muslim hands muslims pays “zakaa” which is amount of money that will be spread on All poor people, muslims or not, on the other side not muslims should pay “gizya”, this money is not forced of you if you don’t have money, it means you have to pay if you have the money, i don’t think this is strange, you pay your taxes, right?

Well, I think this is interesting the way you put it… I was under the impression that if you don’t pay the jizya you get beaten up or your head is taken by the sword.. but maybe I (and the thousands of villagers in Egypt who have been beaten up or worse) am wrong!
Also, what is wrong with collecting the same tax from everyone and distributing it evenly? Why segment the population like this? Aren’t we divided enough? Don’t the Copts do a good enough job of dividing us by the simple use of their name? Unity is a good first step to fixing the nation, but this does not mean that we can gloss over truths, such as the validity of any given religion.

3- anyone who kills any man, muslim or not muslim without a reason (the only reason i know in islam is for another death crime or defending himself in deadly situation), if a muslim commit that crime then he will have the worst punishment, if you don’t know our prophet -PBUH- said that if any muslim hurt any non-muslim in an islamic land, he himself will be against him in the after life before god, he will support the non-muslim to take his right from the muslim man

Well, if it truly says that, I’m sure that the “prophet” changed his mind about it at some point. Also, even if this is what he meant, I don’t think that it is carried out! At least, not in Egypt!

that is the justice i understand and love in islam!!

Ya habeeebi, you are so misguided :-( Even more than the true Moslems, you have a very sunny outlook on the faith, and I think your Moslem brothers would disagree with your feeling that each man’s Islam is different.

Islam, like Christianity, is based on teachings. (The same teachings, in fact! Only your prophet must have fallen asleep when he was on one page, and picked up on another page, because–for one author, he certainly mucked about a great deal!)

Enough from this old post. Let us now move to the new post from today, 22 March 2006.

if you have something to tell me, post it on my blog or send it to my mail, i would love to continue this discussion :)

I look forward to a lively debate! You must promise me that we will end up friends who disagree, however, rather than enemies! :-)

I really pity you because you think you have the truth!!

Well, this is one of the things I love about Christianity! We CAN know where we will end up in the afterlife. We DO HAVE a cure for the spiritual cancer, and that is Jesus Christ. How, then, can you pity me?

thinking that you knwo the truth you will never work really hard and open minded to obtain it, you will always be satisfied with what you have which leads to nothing but what is inside you!!

What I have leads to the Cross! I work very hard, brother, and I struggle daily to live a life that is marginally pleasing to God. I know I fall short, I know that, without the cleansing and precious Blood of His Son, I will never be able to approach Him, the Father. But the sacrifice of Jesus creates a bridge, a Holy Bridge to the Father, and allows me to see Him and stand before Him, sinner though I may be. Ahhh, the freedom and the mercy and the comfort I have, knowing that He went to all this trouble.. Just For Me!

I don’t belive I know anything and that is why i spend my time in seeking the truth, on the other side you are spending yoru time fighting to prove that what you think is true, good for you

Thank you, Socrates, that is very comforting, and I, too, know nothing! BUT I know someone who DOES KNOW EVERYTHING, because HE IS THE ONE, the Holy and Precious One who made everything! I think you have a bigger with Christians than with the Bible. I don’t blame you!

I do have a question, by the way… Do you consider a pious and Good Moslem who is very devout and would never consider another way… do you consider HIM to also be like me, ignorant and set in his ways?

I am not sure whether you object to the fact that I am not actively seeking another way to truth (since I’ve already “found it”) or if you object to the fact that I am part of another religion.

Does this mean you are only happy when you find people who are unsure of their faith, and who even question the great Koran? You may have freedom of thought (to a certain degree) by admitting that a good Christian is better than a bad Moslem, but I don’t know what will make you happiest?

A: A person who blindly follows Islam
B: A “free-thinker” who follows his own interpretation of Islam
C: A free thinking soul who believes that the Koran is wrong, but followed the five pillars
D: A free-thinker who is unaffiliated
E: A Christian who interprets what he likes, who DOES NOT convert to Islam, but who puts credence in the Koran
F: A person who puts in 90 years on earth, never settling on one religion, always seeking an elusive truth until the day he died, and never stuck to any one religion. At least if he chose one, he would have a chance of salvation in that one religion..!

just by chance i came by your post few hours after i posted a related topic on my blog!!

” Al7amdolelah! ”
God sent you to me! Please consider my comments and I look forward to continuing this when you have a moment.

May God open your mind to His absolute, timeless and un-changing truth!

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One Response to “For Maged, a Truly Free Soul..”

  1. freesoul Says:

    Dear friend,

    let me answer you as you made part by part:

    “No, of course there is a use! How can we grow if we do not engage in the intelligent discussions?

    If you get engaged in a debate with the well to prove your idea, without targeting the chance -even little- that you may be wrong, you will not listen to the clues the other side give, if both sides do the same their debate will be a waste of time, they will end up with nothing…

    “I say this in love… you are not a true Moslem, Maged. In a way, I thank God that you were saved from a thirst for blood and a hate, but a true Moslem will think that a Christian–even a good one–can never go to heaven. Also, a true Christian is marked by the fact that he can only accept JESUS CHRIST as the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE, No man can come to the Father (God) but through Him (Jesus)! ”

    when i read this part i got confused!! what on earth could lead you to judge me as to be “not a true muslim!!”

    but i understood that I was right, you formed your idea about the true muslim to be that crazy terrorist blood thirst man, you can’t accept that muslims may have a different face strictly based on religion and I here repeat strictly based on religion!!

    I want to just remind you that at a time the church did an aweful rule to terrorize people, they did all that with their poor understanding for the bibile yet I don’t see you generalize that on all christians now!! why do you do that with islam yet? why do you consider their acts not representing christianity while you consider the acts of muslims representing islam? if you want to know islam, you must know it from its source not its destination because things gets changed between source and destination, that is a rule i know from life

    you said:
    “This puts you in the driver’s seat, doesn’t it! What if I am retarded mentally and cannot understand? Will the god suddenly be nicer to me than to, for example, a genius as yourself? There is no divine sliding scale of salvation and after-life retribution!

    this is a very important rule in islam, each is treated and judged based on his capiblities, the poor villager in the field will be questioned in the after life on his simple family while a man in the university will be questioned on his knowledge and how he helped all his nation with it!!

    if we make questioning in after life equal for all people while we know that all people were not born with equal gifts, this will be too unfair, and of course god is totally fair and will never do such a thing like that

    you said:
    “Boy, you are really not a true Moslem! :-)
    (I believe you are so in error about the holy text, then! You can’t apply
    ” 3a2l ” and rational and modern or even humanistic thought to your ’scriptures,’ dear brother. As Dr Wafaa said, this is really a barbaric and outdated faith… I have to modify her words, however, because the teachings were never NOT outdated! That is to say, they were wrong the from the first day they were printed! The Koran is ” ghalat fy ghalat! ”

    again you base your ideas on ready-made by the others ideas, what should dr wafaa opinion mean to you or me?? am I mentally retarded or disabled to follow her nonsnese :)

    why did you base your ideas on her ideas more than returning to see if her ideas has a soruce in the religion?? again plz don’t point to afganistan and say : “here they are, she is right then” because i can then point out to spain just few hundred years ago and say: “here they are christians and killers and murderers” or point to USA very short time in the slavery period and say “watch what those murderes mercyless christians do!!” but i know that both christianity and islam has nothing to do with those human mistakes because i belive both of them are from god

    on the other side, plz choose your words when you talk about my holy book, it hurts me to say things like so and if we get into a useless debate about which holy book is right we will spend the rest of our lives exchanging words without an end.. it is a case that was proven with no end i believe

    “Well, I think this is interesting the way you put it… I was under the impression that if you don’t pay the jizya you get beaten up or your head is taken by the sword.. but maybe I (and the thousands of villagers in Egypt who have been beaten up or worse) am wrong!
    Also, what is wrong with collecting the same tax from everyone and distributing it evenly? Why segment the population like this? Aren’t we divided enough? Don’t the Copts do a good enough job of dividing us by the simple use of their name? Unity is a good first step to fixing the nation, but this does not mean that we can gloss over truths, such as the validity of any given religion.

    this money is distrubuted evenlty, the islamic gov don’t take the “gizya” to build mosques with!! on the other side, how do you as us to unify it?? by changing the name?? what should the names do with anything?? call it as you want, gizya, taxe or whatever as much as each citizen in any religion do his duty toward the society

    you said;
    “Well, if it truly says that, I’m sure that the “prophet” changed his mind about it at some point. Also, even if this is what he meant, I don’t think that it is carried out! At least, not in Egypt!

    you said so because you didn’t read well in islamic religion while i spend more than 2 years reading about christianity and jewish, this mercy has a very strong roots in islam and for some periods in history, when the governor were good enough to really work for islam, all the people got use of this mercy including christians in egypt

    a christian in egypt made a journey from cairo to “almadina” to complain to el “khalifa” that the governer of egypt did something to him -i don’t remember the case exactly-, the khalifa sent to the governer to come and asked the christian to hit the govener and take his right, he said strong words to blame the gov, there is no real different between muslim nad christian in the rights in islam

    you said: “Ya habeeebi, you are so misguided :-( Even more than the true Moslems, you have a very sunny outlook on the faith, and I think your Moslem brothers would disagree with your feeling that each man’s Islam is different.

    Islam, like Christianity, is based on teachings. (The same teachings, in fact! Only your prophet must have fallen asleep when he was on one page, and picked up on another page, because–for one author, he certainly mucked about a great deal!)

    I will not answer this because it doesn’t have anyting to answer, just again I ask you plz to speak well about my prophet because christ ordered you to lve your enemies and of course didn’t order you to hurt them even by words, did he?

    you said: “Well, this is one of the things I love about Christianity! We CAN know where we will end up in the afterlife. We DO HAVE a cure for the spiritual cancer, and that is Jesus Christ. How, then, can you pity me?

    Yes i do pity you :) because you keep your mind locked on ideas you got since childhood, you don’t want to change and don’t have the well to even consider different ideas, rather than taking ready-made answers made by other persons “like commnets you extracted of dr wafaa stuff”. by the way, who is this dr wafaa ??

    you said : “What I have leads to the Cross! I work very hard, brother, and I struggle daily to live a life that is marginally pleasing to God. I know I fall short, I know that, without the cleansing and precious Blood of His Son, I will never be able to approach Him, the Father. But the sacrifice of Jesus creates a bridge, a Holy Bridge to the Father, and allows me to see Him and stand before Him, sinner though I may be. Ahhh, the freedom and the mercy and the comfort I have, knowing that He went to all this trouble.. Just For Me!

    you didn’t really have to list this because i already know the basis of christianity, while on the other side we beleve that such a thing doesn’t exist because it gives a lisence to all the people to make all kinds of sins as much as they believe in jesus, because he already sacrificed for them and his blood will save them, then cheer up murderers, you are going to paradise at the end!! yet i am not here to discuss religion parts, i will write a separate comment to you to point out my point when i posted the comment and the post on my blog.

    you said : “Thank you, Socrates, that is very comforting, and I, too, know nothing! BUT I know someone who DOES KNOW EVERYTHING, because HE IS THE ONE, the Holy and Precious One who made everything! I think you have a bigger with Christians than with the Bible. I don’t blame you!

    you think you know him!! you didn’t meet him and for sure you didn’t listen to him directly, the bible we know is made of 4 documents out of 4000 documents found by the church and they choosed those four to be the 4 most trusted, the 4 where written 300 years after the days of the christ.. isn’t that all interesting to make you investigate on the things that you think you know.. yet i still don’t think that is all important, even if christ said so, some of his words needs understanding, needs work to be well understood and applied by you well

    the holy texts is not all the time clear, they sometimes require us to work with our minds to understand and believe

    you said : “I am not sure whether you object to the fact that I am not actively seeking another way to truth (since I’ve already “found it”) or if you object to the fact that I am part of another religion.

    I don’t care which religion you are part of, you won’t harm god with being christian or a jew or even a non-believer but what i object to is to make the wonderful machine that god created for us idle -the mind- and say “hey we already reached the truth” while we are just swallowing ideas made by others hundereds of years ago

    and tell me, don’t you think that christians in the middle black ages of the church said the same while they were killing each other with the heretic name?? they also said they are sure of the truth yet what they were sure of was never the truth!!

    you hear put a sail and limit for the human mind as if there is no truth farther from here yet I believe that truth has no limit and as much as we seek it we will know much, god will treat us with the amout of work we do to reach him, it is his responsibility to guide his followers when they seek him and i believe god will do that.

    you asked which case will make me happier?? it is a christian or a muslim who understands that god created us to be brothers, to work together to bulid not destory, to respect and love each other and make this earth a good place for living, don’t you agree??

    how can we reach that?? by appling our minds on the holy texts we have wither it is quraan or the bible or whatever, I believe if we really consider them with our minds there will be no evil or war or terrorism in the world, yet humans tend to follow more than to create or investigate!!

    this is a long debate yet in some parts I saw you attacking islam without a single clue on what you are talking about, this hurts me and if this will be the rule here i will be execused to answer of course but as long as we are committed to a good reasonable conversation, i will be committed to answer you

    we will not be enemies, I don’t have enemies and i will not have ever

    with all the love and mercy and respect i have from islam, I leave you now my friend to read my comments, and regard my call to be brothers whatever the religion is, I don’t care if we are different in religion as much this misunderstanding that makes you fear me or hate me is gone

    Freesoul


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